Argue!, Philosophy Corner Options

[noorie]

Okey friends...........here's me back.........with another "zabardasti" topic .......

.Do you believe that everything has cause and effect? do you agree that everything is determined? do you believe in fate and say, tomorrow we are gonna have a sea battle and there is no chance to avoid? (those who agree with this statement are Determinists, Hard Determinst, Soft Determinist, Dualist, Fatalist)

OR:

You say NO, we human beings have free choice, free will. we can change the course of action in any way we wish to. we can attend a meeting and we can avoid attending at the same time.......(those who agree this statement according to philosophy, they are called, Indertermist, Sceptic)

3...2...1....start!

Here's what i believe in -

http://www.hamaraforums.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=350740

[NATURE]

3 different topics, will try to answer one by one.

ok, the idea of God and Science is pretty convincing for me...i may not go further....BUT the idea of
miracle..u didn't give me an event....a Premise or support...so that i can believe....so your argue does not
convince me....i believe (?-----)miracles do not exist....it is against law of nature ......it's an ordered flow of
river that cannot go back.....now if u believe in miracle prove it...gew me an evident to accept

did i say miracle exists ? i didn't prove or disprove miracle, i just defined it. evidence ?
no evidence to make u believe in miracle. because miracle is either very very difficult or impossible.
i gave some examples to clarify the definition of miracle. so what did u not agree with ?

Do you think that MIND & BODY are two separate parts? why? why not?

Ex1: I am thirsty.......i go to kitchen and grab a glass of water...............

Scientifically, a banch of neurons fire made me walk ....and grab a glass of water......this means they both are physical......

Ex2: "I love him"...............no lab can find what is going on in my mind...they cannot measure level of
my love.....they cannot see it through PET or fMRI.......as a result, it is two separate things!

yes, mind and body are 2 different things. but one is complement to another. your thoughts, actions,
sentiments, emotions, pain, griefs, happiness all these are controlled by mind. body shows the
response of your mind by the movements of your body parts.

who says no lab can find what's going on in your mind ? it's possible to track what's going on.
we can track all your EM waves travelling through your mind carrying different "thinkings"
but for that we need technology and we have it. it's possible now. we can find what are you thinking.

Mind is a part of the body.....Both are physical and accessible, BUT the product of the mind i.e. the
thoughts, they are neither physical nor accessible.

The 1st example of yours is the same as the 2nd one but you approach it differently. My question about the
1st example, keeping in view your second example, would be 'can somebody else can measure the degree
of your thirst????' Now this shows that they are separate (according to your criterion)!

Both of the examples are correlated, keeping in view your 2nd example:

"I am feeling love for her......I go and kiss her"
This shows that they are both physical (according to your criterion)!

WOT U SAY?

mind is not physical. your head is physical, the neurons, the brain nerves are physical. mind is your
thoughts controlled by those neurons and it's not physical. the most we can say is mind is a bunch
of EM waves that carry your emotions, thoughts, likes, dislikes. now u decide it's physical or not.
"i love you" and "i go and kiss you" ??? these are 100% non physical, there's no material here.
it's just your feeling, thoughts. but when u kiss her, it's a physical between to physical objects(bodies) ...

btw, what's physical ? something u can see, u can touch ? or something that is materialistic ?
i mean made of materials ???

Ok..if you think that mind and body are both physical.....but the product is somethin non-physical....then tell
me....how it is generated....and why it is generated.....i think there's no such thing as product....as you
cannot prove it's existance....



i change my first example to:.....i read a board for c-train........i see "whitehorn"...physical, through my
eyes...........i go towards the train....my foot steps are physical......



Conclusion:- mind is physical because my eyes send message to my brain...brain send message to my
legs through spinal cord...and i got into train



in this case you are wrong that the product of mind and body is non physical.....caoz what made me
to get into train was all physical.......my eyes messaged my brain...brain sent message to legs....see all
physical and physical......

things are getting confused. body is physical, brain parts are physical but the waves that carry
informations are not physical, informations can never be physical. now "how is it generated" is
a scientific process. we need to ask a neurologist for that.

are khobi jaan, your eyes, legs, spinal cord, the train, your head all are physical. but the messages
tranfered from one part to another is not physical. messages are just connection between 2 physical
parts to make them work in respective situations.

"your foots are physical" but "your footsteps are physical" has no sense, there's no concept like this.

Do you believe that everything has cause and effect? do you agree that everything is determined? do you
believe in fate and say, tomorrow we are gonna have a sea battle and there is no chance to avoid? (those
who agree with this statement are Determinists, Hard Determinst, Soft Determinist, Dualist, Fatalist)
------------
You say NO, we human beings have free choice, free will. we can change the course of action in any way
we wish to. we can attend a meeting and we can avoid attending at the same time.......(those who agree
this statement according to philosophy, they are called, Indertermist, Sceptic)

3...2...1....start!

yeah cause and effect is there. but it depends upon what causes you are considering( most probably).
everything is determined ? i doubt. can't say.

suppose everything is determined. then the next question is "whether we can know it in advance or not"
if we can know. then it will be quite interesting. say "i will go to b'lore 2morrow" is what will happen.
but then i will try my best not to go somehow. if it happens, then our first hypothesis is wrong.

here 2nd hypothesis(i won't go to b'lore) is more probable. now it depends what u believe.
if you believe everything is determined then try to believe that it's never possible to know in
advance because if we know we can change it.

will talk about it later, it's time for lunch now.

cya

[myawan]

3 different topics, will try to answer one by one.

ok, the idea of God and Science is pretty convincing for me...i may not go further....BUT the idea of
miracle..u didn't give me an event....a Premise or support...so that i can believe....so your argue does not
convince me....i believe (?-----)miracles do not exist....it is against law of nature ......it's an ordered flow of
river that cannot go back.....now if u believe in miracle prove it...gew me an evident to accept

did i say miracle exists ? i didn't prove or disprove miracle, i just defined it. evidence ?
no evidence to make u believe in miracle. because miracle is either very very difficult or impossible.
i gave some examples to clarify the definition of miracle. so what did u not agree with ?

Do you think that MIND & BODY are two separate parts? why? why not?

Ex1: I am thirsty.......i go to kitchen and grab a glass of water...............

Scientifically, a banch of neurons fire made me walk ....and grab a glass of water......this means they both are physical......

Ex2: "I love him"...............no lab can find what is going on in my mind...they cannot measure level of
my love.....they cannot see it through PET or fMRI.......as a result, it is two separate things!

yes, mind and body are 2 different things. but one is complement to another. your thoughts, actions,
sentiments, emotions, pain, griefs, happiness all these are controlled by mind. body shows the
response of your mind by the movements of your body parts.

who says no lab can find what's going on in your mind ? it's possible to track what's going on.
we can track all your EM waves travelling through your mind carrying different "thinkings"
but for that we need technology and we have it. it's possible now. we can find what are you thinking.

Mind is a part of the body.....Both are physical and accessible, BUT the product of the mind i.e. the
thoughts, they are neither physical nor accessible.

The 1st example of yours is the same as the 2nd one but you approach it differently. My question about the
1st example, keeping in view your second example, would be 'can somebody else can measure the degree
of your thirst????' Now this shows that they are separate (according to your criterion)!

Both of the examples are correlated, keeping in view your 2nd example:

"I am feeling love for her......I go and kiss her"
This shows that they are both physical (according to your criterion)!

WOT U SAY?

mind is not physical. your head is physical, the neurons, the brain nerves are physical. mind is your
thoughts controlled by those neurons and it's not physical. the most we can say is mind is a bunch
of EM waves that carry your emotions, thoughts, likes, dislikes. now u decide it's physical or not.
"i love you" and "i go and kiss you" ??? these are 100% non physical, there's no material here.
it's just your feeling, thoughts. but when u kiss her, it's a physical between to physical objects(bodies) ...

btw, what's physical ? something u can see, u can touch ? or something that is materialistic ?
i mean made of materials ???

Ok..if you think that mind and body are both physical.....but the product is somethin non-physical....then tell
me....how it is generated....and why it is generated.....i think there's no such thing as product....as you
cannot prove it's existance....



i change my first example to:.....i read a board for c-train........i see "whitehorn"...physical, through my
eyes...........i go towards the train....my foot steps are physical......



Conclusion:- mind is physical because my eyes send message to my brain...brain send message to my
legs through spinal cord...and i got into train



in this case you are wrong that the product of mind and body is non physical.....caoz what made me
to get into train was all physical.......my eyes messaged my brain...brain sent message to legs....see all
physical and physical......

things are getting confused. body is physical, brain parts are physical but the waves that carry
informations are not physical, informations can never be physical. now "how is it generated" is
a scientific process. we need to ask a neurologist for that.

are khobi jaan, your eyes, legs, spinal cord, the train, your head all are physical. but the messages
tranfered from one part to another is not physical. messages are just connection between 2 physical
parts to make them work in respective situations.

"your foots are physical" but "your footsteps are physical" has no sense, there's no concept like this.

Do you believe that everything has cause and effect? do you agree that everything is determined? do you
believe in fate and say, tomorrow we are gonna have a sea battle and there is no chance to avoid? (those
who agree with this statement are Determinists, Hard Determinst, Soft Determinist, Dualist, Fatalist)
------------
You say NO, we human beings have free choice, free will. we can change the course of action in any way
we wish to. we can attend a meeting and we can avoid attending at the same time.......(those who agree
this statement according to philosophy, they are called, Indertermist, Sceptic)

3...2...1....start!

yeah cause and effect is there. but it depends upon what causes you are considering( most probably).
everything is determined ? i doubt. can't say.

suppose everything is determined. then the next question is "whether we can know it in advance or not"
if we can know. then it will be quite interesting. say "i will go to b'lore 2morrow" is what will happen.
but then i will try my best not to go somehow. if it happens, then our first hypothesis is wrong.

here 2nd hypothesis(i won't go to b'lore) is more probable. now it depends what u believe.
if you believe everything is determined then try to believe that it's never possible to know in
advance because if we know we can change it.

will talk about it later, it's time for lunch now.

cya

In my Humble opinion:

'Everything is determined but we can't know in advance, only God knows......certainly there are ways by which one can have a bit of knowledge about the future but those ways are strongly prohibited in Islam. (I can give a detailed explanation about it if anybody needs it)'

'Secondly although everything is determined but at the same time it is not correct to say that a person is bound to do only whatever is written there....anything he does, is by his choice only, there is no hidden force forcing him to do so.'

If I sound confusing, we can debate.

[myawan]

IDOL you are asking questions after questions but where is the answer to my only & single question??????

[IDOL]

IDOL you are asking questions after questions but where is the answer to my only & single question??????

rokhooooo, rokhooooo........keep that head for my arguements, i need it in my philosophy arguements



ok, dear boy....i did reply to your question WITH question .....i asked which of the TWO, are u? it doesn't matter anyone you are ....just outa curiosity......i will give u enough detail......reply which one of two ur ?
---------------------

....and Nature ji....i love it when u participate here......i will reply u soon...now i am on weekend inside university library, but on weekend mood

[myawan]

Mufti Ebrahim Desai says regarding fortune telling etc.:

Undoubtedly, the complete and correct knowledge of the unseen and the future is only known by Allah Ta'la but Allah Ta'la through His wisdom has kept open certain ways and methods for man to determine the unseen and future which sometimes turn out to be true but often untrue. Although Allah Ta'la has kept open these certain avenues for man, He has also made it haraam for man to utilise these methods and ways to determine the future and unseen and to beleive in it, thererfore, establishing this knowledge as a test for the hearts of man. It is recorded in the books of Tafseer and Hadith that before the birth of Nabi alaihis salaam the jinnaat and shayateen were granted free-flow access to the skies so that whenever any command of Allah Ta'la was to be transmitted via the Angels from the seventh heaven to the first heaven, the Jinnaat would listen to the command of what was to occur on the earth and spontaneously they would pass this knowledge on to there foretunteller, astrologer or palmistry friends on the earth who would then foretel the different occurrences to take place. After the blessed birth of Nabi alaihis salaam, Allah had destined that the Jinnaat and shayateen would not be granted access to the skies and now whenever they would try to listen to any order being passed-on by the Angels they would be repelled instantly. Now, the jinnaat would climb on the backs of each other and make a queue till the sky and the one at the top would hide behind a star and listen like a thief to the order being transmitted and almost instantly the Angel after noticing the jinnaat would kick the star thereby burning the jinn. As soon as the first jinn would hear anything, he would immediately whisper it to his companion below him and so on till the fortunteller at the end would be informed of the future occurrences. Before this information could reach the last person, many lies would have been mixed to the original message therefore the last person would only receive one percent of truth and ninety nine of lies. This is only one of the methods which was and is still adopted to foresee the future. Allamah Ibn Hajar Asqalaani in his book, Fathul Bari, has mentioned four ways of how the unseen and future is interpreted. The above method is the first one and the other three are as follows: 2) Some people come to know of the unseen via a jinn who befriends them and informs them of different occurrences and happenings regarding which man is unaware of OR 3) Through conjecture, estimation and guess some people tell of the unseen. This is a type of power which Allah Ta'ala grants an individual but many a times it turns out to be false OR 4) By means of experience and understanding the habits and system of different things some people deduce of what is to occur in the future . This last type is similiar to magic. All the above methods adopted to foresee the future and to tell of the unseen are reproachable and reprehensible.(Fathul Bari vol. 10 pg. 266, Kitaab on Tibb, Chapter on Foretuntelling, Qadeemi Kutub Khana). In no circumstances is it permissible to go to a foretuneteller or astrologer. There are numerous Ahadith sounding prohibition from visiting a foretuneteller. Nabi alaihis salaam said: He who visits a foretunteller, his salaat will not be accepted for 40 days. Corncerning the person who recites Quraanic verses and foresees the future, we cannot be specific and pass any verdict as to the methodology he adopts but the above 4 methods are the common ones used. and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best