Hi Frienderallas!



argue over the topics:

• God and Science
• To what extend to follow law? (Socrates Trial & Law)
• Why we are in this world?
• What should we do in this world?
• Do you believe in mirecles?

choose any of the above..........argue with reasoning............and i am your instructor to watch and record .........besides, i will take part in arguing too

PS. the arguement here is intended for educational purpose....the core is not the topic, BUT the way of arguing (Premises, Conclusion, Argument)..in case, it might hurt anyone's feeling, i appologize in advance

ayooo, no one yet...........c'mon ......priya where are u.........let's start this conversation............i get help with my philosophy class meanwhile

Yes I do !

Yes God created us and the whole world, HE is one......Science can't prove everything, it can't even prove the presence of feelings inside us so we shouldn't expect it to prove the presence of God.....Science is not bigger than God so we better expect outcomes from this within its boundaries.




God has been for ever and will be forever.....He wanted himself to be recognised and worshiped, so he created human beings. And he promised that whoever will worship him and obey his orders will get rewards unlimited. So we are here to recognise the true God, obey and worship HIM.



read my last para.



Yes!


Please argue if you don't agree........tell me your objections on this......

ok, now i can take part in arguing mircle as there's no one opposing..................( ideas i might express is not my own caoz i haven't made one yet , i might use some of my book " philosophy")



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before i start.......both of you said YES without giving reason............tell me where's miracle? how it occured? were you the one who experienced? or you believe in other's experience?



my arguement is, miracle does not exist........tell you how



if i tell you that yesterday i drove to University, and i found all calgary empty.....no human being, no vehicle, nothing.........are you gonna believe it?.......no, why?....because it is against law of nature.......Hume, the great philosopher of his time says........."A miracle is a violation of the laws of nature"..........



now you two prove Why and How you believe?

Idol it depends on what kinda miracle we are talking about! We have to be specific on that aspect.

yes the word 'miracle' needs more elaboration.

i agree that mircale covers many things( as i discussed in my class as well)...........but think about beginnings.......a dead rising from the grave.....seeing an alien........sudden darkness all over the world......seeing a person that others can't see......etc



( in my book "Philosophy", they are not very specific either, but over all, they argue about those thoughts human beings carried over the generations.... maybe, like seeing things hard to beleive )

Are we talking about miracles as in the case of a magical happenings or something to do with our thought processes.

A thing that was considered impossible, but happens beyond our belief.

We can see it anyway.

ok mela bacha, let's get out of this confusion.

• define miracle in ur own way
• explain it
• refer to an event in which u found a miracle
• give reason(s) for believing or support it by a reason

as i disagreed (above) by giving reason that it is against of law of nature to believe in miracles.

khobi jaan, i must tell you i don't know much about all these. sometimes i think i would never come
to any conclusion, so why to think ? there's no end of this debate, is there any end ?


god is when yr curiosity and fascination dominate yr logic and reasoning. science is just its opposite.
in both the cases, your sole purpose is to uncover the mysteries of the nature, lives & deaths.
but whatever way you prefer, curiosity is a must.

1. god is there when we feel we are created by another supernatural creature and he/she is the
supreme. we are just parts of him. he decides everything, he's the creator as well as the destroyer.

2. science is there when we feel there's a law of nature, nature follows certain rules and regulations.
there's an answer to questions like: how did the universe come into existence, then how did living
beings come into existence and saveral other natural phenomena.
science has answered to many such questions and is still trying to uncover many mysteries including
the reasons behind lives & deaths.

so what do you prefer ? god or science ? god is static and science is dymanic. it's growing and
trying to discover every natural phenomenon. when we believe in god we stop thinking
scientifically. we think there's only one behind everything. then prove it no ? why do u just believe and
say all what science has given us, told us is less than what god is meant to us.
i don't say: don't believe in god, i say discover god scientifically. use yr logic & reasoning to discover
everything, to prove the existence of god.
this is what science follows (and perhaps this is the reason science is still silent in this matter. don't say
that science can't say anything about life & death that means god exists, if u think it exists prove it.
science wants to think, experiment and then formulate) ... so, what do you follow ?


breathtaking questions. let me take breath first.


i haven't faced any, other than what i heard. can't support it with my limited knowledge.


you do ? who is that man nimmi ji ?


hum aapki baaton kaa avhelnaa nahi karnaa chaahte, parantu aapki baaton par vishwaas bhi nahi kar paate.
kaise sambhab hai ? there's a reason behind every reason, how and when did god come into existence ?
if u believe in his powers than how did he achieve those powers ? i am not convinced. and why he thinks
we should recognize him and worship him ? and for that matter only he created us ? first i want to know
who created him, who created god. gustaakhi maaph ho.



as far as i think miracles may be defined in 2 ways:

1. miracle is something unexpected, very very unexpected. it's too difficult but may not be impossible
though the situation says it can't happen but it may happen in certain conditions. probability is too low
but not zero.

2. miracle is something that forces nature to go against it, it forces nature not to follow its laws
or miracles happen when nature disobey its rules & regulations. this is called impossible(as we refer it).

few examples: someday u discover that playing a certain kind of music at a particular time can
cure cancer. sounds impossible ? but there may be a possibility to cure some diseases if not cancer

tansen could fire everything by singing raag deepak, he could make rain fall by singing raag megh
this is another example of miracle. u believe ? may be possible, resonance may occur when you
excite the cloud molecules, excite them by certain waves of a definite frequency and rail will fall.
music is just a continuous flow of molecules(vibration) excited in a definite fashion, this excitation
may excite those cloud molecules. and in this case raag megh may be a help.

miracle is when you were already dead but you just got your life back.

***********************

khobi jaan, bahut ho gayaa naa ? bore ho gaye kya ? aapkaa kya kehnaa hai ? vaise hum kuchh
bhi kahe kuchh sawaal aise hai jinkaa abhitak koi jawaab nahi milaa. kise pataa kab milenge ? roushni daalte rahiye,
cheeze saaf saaf dikhaai dete rahenge. disover and discover, that's what human being can do.

Thanks for your reply......

......Insaan ka zehen mehdood (restricted) hai like all other animals, take an example of a donkey, does a donkey know that who created his master (any human being)???? Ofcourse man's mind is much more complex and advanced but STILL that is limited, we do know a lot but STILL doesn't know everything and this knowledge is not required for our success either.
Secondly there isn't any reason behind every reason, can you give me a reason for having two ears while one nose????? Does you think that such a complex human body is produced without any huge and ultimate knowledge behind it. Sun rises in the east and sets in the west daily without colliding with other planets and its been happening for millions of years.....Is it possible without someone controlling all this???? Study the nature and you'll find God in every bit of it.
The GOD is the super power, if he wants that people worship Him then its HIS right and HE is very just, He has promised us the great rewards in return. Who created this universe?? Who created human beings and most importantly gave them mind!!! THINK WHY???? KYA YEH SAB AIK ITTEFAQ HAI????

waiting for your reply and your objections ofcourse

Myawan Bhai very rightly put indeed!

Those who question God as being the ultimate power sure have some thinking to do and of course they need to come up with better points to support their theory. I do understand that almost everything can be explained through a scientific process but when you consider how small we humans are before nature, the realisation that things are really not in our control also sets in rather quickly! A Tsunami or an Earthquake or for that matter an overflowing river still have the potential to create huge destruction and devastation to human life and that is where the grandnness of nature and also the sheer helplessness of the human race can be seen in it's entireness.

However, the fact that even after all this, we humans show the courage and resilience to pick ourselves up and move ahead with our lives, presents a very interesting paradox to the whole situation. What this shows is that something far bigger than us and far bigger than the nature around us exists, and it is this existence that we mere mortals are tempted to call 'GOD'. Irrespective of the shape, name or description that you might use to explain this presence, the fact remains that it is this mysterious existence that controls us and everything else that is around us.

I am sorry if my words don't explain much but that's expected, isn't it? If mere words could describe a force like 'GOD' we could well have unearthed what continues to be the biggest mystery of all - LIFE!

Very very true!!!

nahe, KHobi jan never get bored, Nature jan.



ok, the idea of God and Science is pretty convincing for me...i may not go further....BUT the idea of miracle..u didn't give me an event....a Premise or support...so that i can believe....so your argue does not convince me....i believe (?-----)miracles do not exist....it is against law of nature ......it's an ordered flow of river that cannot go back.....now if u believe in miracle prove it...gew me an evident to accept

i loved this conversation between the two great members.......do not stop it....please have it continued!

special thanks to each and everyone taking part in this arguement.......it helps me with my philosophy courses.......

Idol, thanks for starting a topic like this and I am glad you liked what all of us have posted! Well, let us admit one thing in this whole arguement that - this world or should I say the Universe is indeed too complicated a mystery to be unearthed by mere mortals like us who can easily be overawed by the nature that sorrounds us, however, we must also realise that science today has helped us to explore and discover various facets of the universe which our earlier generations believed to be supernatural or for that matter a result of divine intervention! Over the years Science has broken many myths and beliefs, and more importantly this process of scientific evolution is still going strong. So, I won't be surprised, if, in the years to come Science takes us even closer towards solving the mystery of life and yes- Death.

I look at God as someone or something that is important for me since it is a power that I can count on in times of grief and misery. It is something that gives me hope and at times provides me with a direction. I don't necessarily agree with Myawan ji's points about the right of 'God' to be Worshipped, however, it is natural for anyone to respect someone/something, whom he/she believes to be more powerful and of course deservant of their respect. Showing respect doesn't mean worshipping someone and we must make a distinction in the two terms.

The whole thing about 'Worshipping' is more to do with religious sentiments and faith, which, if I may say I don't necessarily agree with as these very religions have become a basis of so much blood-shed over the years and today have become mere tools that our politicians and the so called Religious 'Gurus' use to fool the common man who is 'God' fearing. Still, the major positive that these religions have is that they give a name and a shape to ideals that we all must aspire to achieve in our lives and thus makes it simpler for us to follow certain guidelines that make us better human beings. Well, if you want to know more about 'GOD' listen to this song carefully - TU HINDU BANEGA NA MUSALMAN BANEGA , by Rafi Sahab from Dhool Ka Phool and I am sure you will learn a lot more about 'GOD' and the simple philosophy behind humanity and the 'SUPREME' Power that controls this universe.

Well said Legend Rafi.

I add to this that GOD is the power which should be counted on in the times of joy as well......

For me GOD is the ultimate source of knowledge and logic. So how it can be expected that GOD made this whole universe without any reason. Can anybody come up with some reason other than which I gave earlier?
Waiting......

Myawan ji quite right and yes I completely agree with that.

However, what I meant was that it is more in times of sadness and despair that we look towards something that we believe can help us and rid us of our hardships and that is when we look up towards 'GOD' or the supreme force. I am sure you know these lines -

"JISKA KOI NAHIN USKA TO KHUDA HAI YAARON"

We must remember 'GOD' during the good times but 'GOD' to us is that supreme power who, at times, is our only ray of hope and that is when we remember and pray to him/her. So, it is in these hard times that the meaning of 'GOD' is so much more clear to us than at any other time.

To be honest, I am thankful to you and Mywan ji for participating in this arguement. Dealing with sensitive topics need alot of courage and maturity, which you are already presening a great level of maturity in the subject dealing with god.



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Points I highlighted above, I came to a conclusion that you believe religion is something between you and a supernatural power. over all, you mean religion is something very personal which has to be separated from politics and other stuff. ( i agree) ......



i may not participate in you two's conversation because you two have the two separate positions already, which helps arguement grow.

I need further explaination in this part........

• he wants to worship him.

here, i find it not personal.....it's collective obligation....which opposed to the other member's argument....................great, keep it up

Every parent considers it its right to be obeyed and that right is globally accepted, right?
GOD is the supernatural and the ultimate power, the creator of the whole universe......so if HE (sorry for using this word, associating GOD with any gender is not correct) wants to be worshiped then whats wrong with it?

Myawan Bhai, let me put a slightly different perspective to this thing about the "worshipping" part.
I don't know much about what Islam says on this but in some forms of Hindu mythology (by the way, I must tell you that I am not an expert in any of the two religions and all I say here is more to do from certain basic knowledge about Hinduism) it has been said that God resides inside each of us or for that matter he is a part of us. Now, in this light why would 'GOD' want us to worship him/her when he is inside us ? Would it mean that we should worship our ownselves or would it mean (and this seems more appropriate) that all of us are equal and thus we should respect each other but worship none? You talk about worshipping 'God' but what do you say about people worshipping the Religious teachers and Gurus? What do you make of such forms of worshipping?

Now, my simple take on this situation is that if we want to acknowledge and show our respect towards the almighty, then we don't need to worship him/her, rather we should respect 'GOD's' creations which includes the human race and of course all other living things around us. And ultimately it is the theory of 'KARMA' which explains most things that happen to us. "What you sow is what you reap", that's the simple philosophy on which our lives depend and by mere worshipping some stone idols or some sacred pictures we would never be able to become one with the 'GOD'.

Hopefully the above lines make some sense! I know, it can get confusing but that's the main problem with something like this - as much as we all might say, the fact remains that we are still looking for answers!

Very interesting comments!

Well, to me, GOD does not reside in any of HIS creations......If it is so then it means that one should not die coz GOD can never die. Ofcourse he has put spirit (rooh) in each of HIS living creatures and this thing (rooh) is very very complex and still a mystery.
So a human being must worship only that ONE GOD who is the creator. Why should we worship the creations rather than the creator himself? Doesn't make sense to me.
The best way to treat HIS creations is to give respect and love to them. And thats what the GOD wants. The GOD loves every creation of HIS, thats why he wants us to love each other as well.

Myawan Bhai, who said GOD dies or we die? No, we never die! Tell me - What is life but the soul or the 'Rooh' which, as I know, is indestructible - it merely changes it's medium i.e. the body. Yes, our bodies get old and wear out but that is merely the scientific part of it, the spiritual part which connects us with the 'GOD' never dies because as per Hindu mythology - and I am sure this is accepted by other religions as well- the spirit can not be killed. The spirit is basically the purest form of us and thus it is a part of 'GOD' since we consider 'GOD' to be the purest as well. So, when inside us we have 'the purest' then how are we any different from the 'Purest' i.e GOD ?

You are absolutely right that the spirit cannot die....it is just transformed from this world to another but the body dies.
But about the spirit being part of GOD is not possible according to me. Coz if spirit is a part of GOD Himself then why he puts some spirits to suffering and some to luxuries in this world, why is so injustice here?? Secondly why the GOD needed to put Himself in each of his creations??? Thirdly if we all have GOD within us then why is this world created by GOD???? Whats the thinking behind the creation of this Great universe???

Sorry, Myawan Bhai, I don't have answers to the questions that you have raised, mainly because I am a physical existence and the soul inside me is what allows my physical existence and this physical existence is too small a thing to understand the intricacies and secrets of life! According to me it is this physical shape that lives in this World and has to go through the cycle of life and through the "luxuries" and the bad times that life has to offer. To me the soul is pure and left untouched by whatever happens to our physical existence.
I am afraid I don't have any other explanations left but then this is a never ending debate and maybe we should amicably resolve it for now.

Surely a long long discussion is required......

special thanks to both of you.......



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Do you think that MIND & BODY are two separate parts? why? why not?



Ex1: I am thirsty.......i go to kitchen and grab a glass of water...............



Scientifically, a banch of neurons fire made me walk ....and grab a glass of water......this means they both are physical......



Ex2: "I love him"...............no lab can find what is going on in my mind...they cannot measure level of my love.....they cannot see it through PET or fMRI.......as a result, it is two separate things!



Take a position.....argue with reasons.............best of luck to my good philosofers (participants)...remember Craig says everyone is a philosopher.

Mind is a part of the body.....Both are physical and accessible, BUT the product of the mind i.e. the thoughts, they are neither physical nor accessible.

The 1st example of yours is the same as the 2nd one but you approach it differently. My question about the 1st example, keeping in view your second example, would be 'can somebody else can measure the degree of your thirst????'
Now this shows that they are separate (according to your criterion)!

Both of the examples are correlated, keeping in view your 2nd example:

"I am feeling love for her......I go and kiss her"
This shows that they are both physical (according to your criterion)!

WOT U SAY?

you want me to take part, then let's do ittttttttt.....



ok before i start...i gotta mention , i need to be in opposite (no matter your right or wrong ) so that this arguement goes on........it is neither my idea nor my thoughts;however, some might be...but main point is .....just to learn how to argue......


hmm, before that let me grab my breakfast .....arguement main energy ke zaroorat hoti hain

Such a long breakfast......you must be coming back with a BIG BANG!!!!

Ok..if you think that mind and body are both physical.....but the product is somethin non-physical....then tell me....how it is generated....and why it is generated.....i think there's no such thing as product....as you cannot prove it's existance....



i change my first example to:.....i read a board for c-train........i see "whitehorn"...physical, through my eyes...........i go towards the train....my foot steps are physical......



Conclusion:- mind is physical because my eyes send message to my brain...brain send message to my legs through spinal cord...and i got into train



in this case you are wrong that the product of mind and body is non physical.....caoz what made me to get into train was all physical.......my eyes messaged my brain...brain sent message to legs....see all physical and physical......

Try to prove me wrong..........caoz i wanna get annoyed and think deeply ...oh boy, philosophy is funpainlia
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oh for breakfast thing...why it took long....ur not a girl...so u wont understand.......being on net on sunday morning , when ur mom calls you for help in the kitchen........and when you're gonna have ur Gujrati-origin (born canadian) friends and guests coming for an Afghani lunch.........how would u manage internet ,kitchen ,and the big challenge of philosophy at the same time? ..........i can get online from university library easily with no interuption....but oh boy, at home it is a big challenge.

Today I am not in a mode to argue.........'that' person has shocked me, log kitni jaldi badal jate hain.

It's ok........i can understand u....same thing happened to me when i saw Admin's reply by listing his four nick names...i recognized one only.......he's been such a good fellow when i was broadcasting The Khobi Show.........he was very supporting.....i liked the way he praised my attempts to make shows........but anyways, we still respect him as an old friend...forgive & forget..

Sorry but this comment has lost its worth God is the biggest reality but isn't scientifically proven yet.



Are messages physical??


Anyways change the topic please......I don't see any outcome from this one coz its too confusing and looks more like a medical subject

ayooooooooo.........changing the topic means changing my course subject... ............come on , you can do it

Kitni behas kartay ho tum dono

zabardasti karwayi jati hai......

Goya, ye koi exercise ho aur hum Gym-class attend kar rahe hon

Okey friends...........here's me back.........with another "zabardasti" topic .......

..........................



Do you believe that everything has cause and effect? do you agree that everything is determined? do you believe in fate and say, tomorrow we are gonna have a sea battle and there is no chance to avoid? (those who agree with this statement are Determinists, Hard Determinst, Soft Determinist, Dualist, Fatalist)



OR:



You say NO, we human beings have free choice, free will. we can change the course of action in any way we wish to. we can attend a meeting and we can avoid attending at the same time.......(those who agree this statement according to philosophy, they are called, Indertermist, Sceptic)



3...2...1....start!

I believe in this!
Cant argue though

Here's what i believe in -

http://www.hamaraforums.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=350740

3 different topics, will try to answer one by one.


did i say miracle exists ? i didn't prove or disprove miracle, i just defined it. evidence ?
no evidence to make u believe in miracle. because miracle is either very very difficult or impossible.
i gave some examples to clarify the definition of miracle. so what did u not agree with ?


yes, mind and body are 2 different things. but one is complement to another. your thoughts, actions,
sentiments, emotions, pain, griefs, happiness all these are controlled by mind. body shows the
response of your mind by the movements of your body parts.

who says no lab can find what's going on in your mind ? it's possible to track what's going on.
we can track all your EM waves travelling through your mind carrying different "thinkings"
but for that we need technology and we have it. it's possible now. we can find what are you thinking.


mind is not physical. your head is physical, the neurons, the brain nerves are physical. mind is your
thoughts controlled by those neurons and it's not physical. the most we can say is mind is a bunch
of EM waves that carry your emotions, thoughts, likes, dislikes. now u decide it's physical or not.
"i love you" and "i go and kiss you" ??? these are 100% non physical, there's no material here.
it's just your feeling, thoughts. but when u kiss her, it's a physical between to physical objects(bodies) ...

btw, what's physical ? something u can see, u can touch ? or something that is materialistic ?
i mean made of materials ???


things are getting confused. body is physical, brain parts are physical but the waves that carry
informations are not physical, informations can never be physical. now "how is it generated" is
a scientific process. we need to ask a neurologist for that.

are khobi jaan, your eyes, legs, spinal cord, the train, your head all are physical. but the messages
tranfered from one part to another is not physical. messages are just connection between 2 physical
parts to make them work in respective situations.

"your foots are physical" but "your footsteps are physical" has no sense, there's no concept like this.


yeah cause and effect is there. but it depends upon what causes you are considering( most probably).
everything is determined ? i doubt. can't say.

suppose everything is determined. then the next question is "whether we can know it in advance or not"
if we can know. then it will be quite interesting. say "i will go to b'lore 2morrow" is what will happen.
but then i will try my best not to go somehow. if it happens, then our first hypothesis is wrong.

here 2nd hypothesis(i won't go to b'lore) is more probable. now it depends what u believe.
if you believe everything is determined then try to believe that it's never possible to know in
advance because if we know we can change it.

will talk about it later, it's time for lunch now.

cya

In my Humble opinion:

'Everything is determined but we can't know in advance, only God knows......certainly there are ways by which one can have a bit of knowledge about the future but those ways are strongly prohibited in Islam. (I can give a detailed explanation about it if anybody needs it)'

'Secondly although everything is determined but at the same time it is not correct to say that a person is bound to do only whatever is written there....anything he does, is by his choice only, there is no hidden force forcing him to do so.'

If I sound confusing, we can debate.

IDOL you are asking questions after questions but where is the answer to my only & single question??????

rokhooooo, rokhooooo........keep that head for my arguements, i need it in my philosophy arguements



ok, dear boy....i did reply to your question WITH question .....i asked which of the TWO, are u? it doesn't matter anyone you are ....just outa curiosity......i will give u enough detail......reply which one of two ur ?
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....and Nature ji....i love it when u participate here......i will reply u soon...now i am on weekend inside university library, but on weekend mood