My World Xi Options

[YaarMere]

Do you really like cricket that much or are you just lookin to fence with ppl, Track?

[princeali]

The world's best pace bowlers are not in the Australian team. In face throughout the last 5-6 years it has been Pakistan with Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Sami and SA with Pollock, Donald, Hayward etc. who form better pace attacks than Australia. Compare this to McGrath, Gillespie, Kaspro and Lee and you will see the difference. Pakistan and SA had more better all around pace attacks than the Aussies did for a good part of the last few years.

You did mention Inzi wasn't a great captain which is why I brought up Tendukar's captaincy record as the topic is specifically on both of them.

You really think Ijaz has more class than Inzi just because he has fared better against Australia ?. This is quite amusing.

When I said Lara struggles against mediocre attacks in the world I meant for example the Indian attack which is no great shakes. Lara averages 50.22 against Australia yet only 37.66 against India. So much so for faring against Australia in Australia, his average is 38.75 in those bouncy pacy wickets.

Since when was Tendulkar's test average over 55 against SA. His average against SA is 37.14 in 16 matches, so much so for being outstanding against one of the best in the world.

Inzi averages more against the WI and NZ than Tendulkar does in Test Cricket and Sachin averages more against other teams than Inzi. My point is that Tendulkar also has his weaknesses against certain attacks in the world. If you want to compare One Day stats, the two average about the same against SA, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, England and other teams except for a few in where the other averages more than the other against certain teams. You can check all these stats out for yourself. You mentioned Tendulkar's 38 hundreds right. How many of them have been against quality bowling attacks ?. 23 of his 38 hundreds have come against Zimbabwe, NZ, Namibia, Sri Lanka and Kenya. Now if you call that quality bowling attacks than I don't know what you call the attacks of Pak, Aus, SA etc. So as you can see most of his hundreds have come against sub-standard attacks.

You mentioned my match-winning argument as weak, well you can see for yourself as to if Tendulkar is a match-winner or not. Here is the list of most prolific batsman's averages in wins (source is Cricinfo). Please refer to the table I have provided, and you will see Inzi is second only to The great Don.

The fact is that Tedulkar is not even in the Top 10 of Match Winners. How many times has Tendulkar won a match for his country ?. Please show me these statisitcs or would you be implying that scoring against certain countries is enough to make a batsman and winning a game for your country comes second. I am sure Tendulkar himself cares more about India's state then his own records. At the end of the day records don't matter if you don't win. We are not comparing individual records for Inzi and Tendulkar, we are comparing their stature as match-winners and against certain countries to point out that you do not need to be the greatest against Australia to be a class batsman. You do not seem to care for statistics when it dimishes Tendulkar's so called "greatness". What use is a batsman if he does not win matches for his country ?. He can be the best player in the world, break all records and yet if his team does not win, what is the point ?.

Also, you seem to point out Gavaskar's greatness against the best attack of that time, the West Indies, to prove his stature as a class batsman. No doubt he was classy, but investigate further and you will notice something interesting. Here is Gavaskar's record against the WI. I have provided Gavaskar's record against the WI in the table below.

If you dig a little deeper, cracks appear. Gavaskar's two best series against the West Indians came when their bowling attack was a far cry from the four-pronged battery of fast bowlers that was their main strength during their time as the best attack in the world. First, the series in 1970-71, where Gavaskar scored 774 runs from four Tests, the attack consisted of Vanburn Holder, Gregory Shillingford, Keith Boyce, Uton Dowe, John Shepherd and Garry Sobers which is hardly fearsome stuff. The next series, Gavaskar scored 732 runs in six Tests. The pace bowlers this time were Holder, Norbert Philli, Sylvester Clarke and a new Malcolm Marshall, who managed three wickets at 88.33 in the Tests.

The two series in which Gavaskar did have to face a four-pronged pace attack, he didn't enjoy success. The tour of 1982-83 was very bad, his only best score was an unbeaten 147 on the fifth day of a Test that was heading towards a a draw. If you remove that knock, and his eight remaining innings in that series fetched him only 93 runs. This shows Gavaskar was not great shakes when the going got tough against the WI, now can you still claim that this should shatter his classiness ?, I think not. I still think he is a wonderful batsman, even though he did not do too well against the Best of the WI. If this is playing against genuine pace bowling then I don't know what is. Same case with Inzi, why would his stature diminish just because he has not done so well against Australia.

I would like to remind you, I have a high regard for Sachin and do not dislike him as you may claim. I am jut trying to provide proof that Inzi is a batsman of class, is in the same bracket as greats like Sachin and Lara, and is a proven match-winner, something Sachin is not. After all we are all lovers of cricket.

[Akhtar]

Just to further enhance the above statement, in the fourth inns of a test (in most cases, if not all, where the result of a test match is decided), Tendulkar has been dismissed 24 out of 77 times in between 0-9.

Tendulkars ten biggest scores in the 4th Inns of a test, have only ever lead to two victories (yes, TWO!!). The rest came in high scoring draws, or in miserable beatings for the Indian team. In some cases, Tendulkar actually threw away a won match (read Chennai Test v Pak 1999)

[tracknest]

I did say people in this forum will make Don roll in his grave.

I am enjoying this:

1. The fact that Inzy has a average to a mediocre record against most countries in one days compared to Sachin proves that your oversetimation of him is more out of passion than rationality

2. Great batsmen do well well against the best teams in the world and tear apart the weaker ones. I am happy you observed that in Sachins Case. He has dominated the Australian team and slammed the weaker sides. There are question marks on Inzy on both the fronts.

3. Yes Pakistan did have a world class bowling attack with Wasem (my all time favorite), Waqar and Saqlain (my all time favorite off spinner) and Sachin is avergaing over 42 in the test match which is reasobly good against a class attack like that . In one day he averages 38 which is not that bad considering we both agree Pakistan over the years had a class bowling attack.

4. Akhtar miya about throwing a game, well you should contact Salim Malik, he will tell you more about it. Sachin is not only the best batsmen but also a thorough gentleman who plays his heart and soul out for his country.

5. Prince your views on Gavaskar are amusing, you have tried to find the cracks but overseen the great wall of class. He was the only batsmen who dominated the great Malcolm Marshall who has said several times in past that Gavakar was the toughest batsman to bowl so has Dennis Lillee who in opinion of many is the greatest fast bowler of all times. You now claim to know more than them too.


6. To judge Tendulkar of his 4th innings score is a hogwash. Its a vague stat as it does not take into account the nature of the match. It also does not take into account the first innings score and the performance of the bowlers. And mind you Sachin had to play with class players like Shastri, Vengsarkar, Azharuddin, Dravid , Saurav, Laxman, Sewag and to still dominate when playing with these players over the years is a mark of a true champion. Besides Miandad, Anwar and Youhana to some extent I cant think of any other class player in the last 10-15 years. Hence Inzy's record looks good to you guys, the fact is its just ok and its inconsisitent.

7. India may have not had great pace bowlers but our spinners are as good as any. Kumble has taken 10 /7 wickets against Pak in one game and troubled them over the years. Kapid Dev in many ways was responsible for cutting short the career of Zaheers Abbas who has gone on record saying "Kapil was unplayable". Kapil not only has a good record against Pakistan but has taken majority of his wickets in the Asisn suncotinent.

8. You make me laugh when you compare Tom , Dick and Harries with world class bowlers like McGrath, Mcdermott and Brett Lee. Macgrath is one bowler that tests Sachin and Lara from time to time. Now you will tell me Mohammed Sami is better thanb Macgrath , I shall not be surprsied. Only Tendulkar and Lara have had conistent sucees against him.

9. Tendulkar is the most valuable batsmen in world cricket let alone the Indian team. Inzy may be the most valuable player for Pakistan and he should be as IMO there is no one even as half as good in the team currently.

10. I have high regards for all those players who have made cricket a better game and Inzy is one of them simply beacuse he seems to be a very simple person and has surely made a hugh contribution to the Pak team. My issue is with jealous people who cant accept that the greatest batsmen in the world (besides Lara) happens to be Sachin Tendulakar.

11. I remember when I was younger, many people I knew in India who were crazy over Zaheer Abbas, Imran, Miandad, Qadir, Waseem and Waqar and I was one of them. No jealousy, simply the love for this great game.

THIS SHOULD BE IT...I WILL LEAVE YOU GUYS WITH THIS TOPIC. NO HARD FEELINGS

YAAR MERE...LETS DISCUSS SQUASH...I AM AN ARDENT FAN OF JEHANGIR KHAN

SOCCER IS NOT MY SPORT YM, BUT STILL HAPPY TO DISCUSS GREATS LIKE PELE, MARADONNA,ZICO,RONALDO AND OTHERS.

[YaarMere]

YAAR MERE...LETS DISCUSS SQUASH...I AM AN ARDENT FAN OF JEHANGIR KHAN

SOCCER IS NOT MY SPORT YM, BUT STILL HAPPY TO DISCUSS GREATS LIKE PELE, MARADONNA,ZICO,RONALDO AND OTHERS.

Oh ho.. let me shake your hand 4 remembering The White Pele, he deserved to win the WC, a true great he was. There is another Brazilian by the name of Garrincha, who I reckon is better then Pele. But let me tell you sumthin Track, there is 1 Rafi n there is only 1 Maradona! No1 even comes close.

Squash? Not my thing really. I do know a little of J. Khan.

[tracknest]

YAAR MERE...LETS DISCUSS SQUASH...I AM AN ARDENT FAN OF JEHANGIR KHAN

SOCCER IS NOT MY SPORT YM, BUT STILL HAPPY TO DISCUSS GREATS LIKE PELE, MARADONNA,ZICO,RONALDO AND OTHERS.

Oh ho.. let me shake your hand 4 remembering The White Pele, he deserved to win the WC, a true great he was. There is another Brazilian by the name of Garrincha, who I reckon is better then Pele. But let me tell you sumthin Track, there is 1 Rafi n there is only 1 Maradona! No1 even comes close.

Squash? Not my thing really. I do know a little of J. Khan.

YM I do agree with Mohd Rafi (although i also enjoy hearing Mukesh and Kishore) but I like to include Pele with Maradona if you dont mind. Pakistan has had a great history of world class squash players and Jehangir Khan was one of them.

[YaarMere]

YM I do agree with Mohd Rafi but I like to include Pele with Maradona if you dont mind.

Look, I'll level with you. Im a football person n I think you probably know me the least here but even you wont deny me that. So I ask, wot kind of a footie fan wud I be If I didnt recognize Pele's contribution to football? He is larger then the game. But Pele only played in Brazil. Maradona on the other hand was the same in South America as he was in Europ n in Europ is where he made his name.

[Anil4]

YM I do agree with Mohd Rafi but I like to include Pele with Maradona if you dont mind.

Maradona on the other hand was the same in South America as he was in Europ n in Europ is where he made his name.

YM didn't he make his name with "the hand of God" ?

Anil

[YaarMere]

YM didn't he make his name with "the hand of God" ?

Anil

No.

[princeali]

I did say people in this forum will make Don roll in his grave.

I am enjoying this:

1. The fact that Inzy has a average to a mediocre record against most countries in one days compared to Sachin proves that your oversetimation of him is more out of passion than rationality

What are we comparing here, Tests or One-dayers ?. If its One-dayers, as I already mentioned, the two have similar averages against some teams and have higher averages than one another against others. Where is this so called mediocre record of Inzi's against most countries in one-dayers ?....I suppose it is only in imagination. Yup a passion for one of the best bastman in the world today .

2. Great batsmen do well well against the best teams in the world and tear apart the weaker ones. I am happy you observed that in Sachins Case. He has dominated the Australian team and slammed the weaker sides. There are question marks on Inzy on both the fronts.

Ofcourse I observed it, facts are facts, you should not try and hide that up. Similarly, there is no question that Inzi has destroyed the weaker attacks in the world and against the stronger ones as well (there are strong attacks in the world besides Pak, SA and Aus). The only difference is Tendulkar fares better against Australia.

I also observed that Sachin has most of his hundreds against weaker attacks. You say that a measure of class is against the very best, yet you call this aspect as destroying the weaker attacks when really it shows he is does not score centuries against the best attacks. But when Inzi is not that great against Australia but great against other good attacks, you say it dimishes his class.


3. Yes Pakistan did have a world class bowling attack with Wasem (my all time favorite), Waqar and Saqlain (my all time favorite off spinner) and Sachin is avergaing over 42 in the test match which is reasobly good against a class attack like that . In one day he averages 38 which is not that bad considering we both agree Pakistan over the years had a class bowling attack.

4. Akhtar miya about throwing a game, well you should contact Salim Malik, he will tell you more about it. Sachin is not only the best batsmen but also a thorough gentleman who plays his heart and soul out for his country.

The best for breaking and making records, scoring plenty of runs and destroying attacks, not WINNING MATCHES

5. Prince your views on Gavaskar are amusing, you have tried to find the cracks but overseen the great wall of class. He was the only batsmen who dominated the great Malcolm Marshall who has said several times in past that Gavakar was the toughest batsman to bowl so has Dennis Lillee who in opinion of many is the greatest fast bowler of all times. You now claim to know more than them too.

Statistics do not lie my friend, whether you like it or not, it is a fact that Gavaskar did well against the WI when their bowling attack was weakened and not against the famous pace attack they were known for. As for Marshall, in his prime he only faced Gavaskar in two series, 1982-83 and 1983-84, and Gavaskar failed to make any impact against their attack, so where is this so called dominace you speak of ?. So much so for being the toughest batsman to bowl to, more like a tough batsman but a quick wicket

6. To judge Tendulkar of his 4th innings score is a hogwash. Its a vague stat as it does not take into account the nature of the match. It also does not take into account the first innings score and the performance of the bowlers. And mind you Sachin had to play with class players like Shastri, Vengsarkar, Azharuddin, Dravid , Saurav, Laxman, Sewag and to still dominate when playing with these players over the years is a mark of a true champion. Besides Miandad, Anwar and Youhana to some extent I cant think of any other class player in the last 10-15 years. Hence Inzy's record looks good to you guys, the fact is its just ok and its inconsisitent.

Quite inconsistent there buddy, a test average of about 50, a one-day average of about 40, a proven match-winner, and you call that ok and inconsistent, then what's great and consistent ?.

Tendulkar has not dominated over Dravid since Dravid has an equally good Test average to Tendulkar's and has won more matches for his country besides getting them out of trouble more than enough times, so how has Tendulkar infact dominated ?. Sure when it comes to runs and centuries, no doubt he has dominated.

Laxman and Sehwag do not come close to Dravid, Tendulkar or Azhar in class, although Laxman is a good batsman and is classy in his own way. Some other class players Pak has produced over the last 10-15 years are Sohail, Saleem Malik and a batsman who may also not be as classy as the others but classy in his own way, Ijaz Ahmed.

7. India may have not had great pace bowlers but our spinners are as good as any. Kumble has taken 10 /7 wickets against Pak in one game and troubled them over the years. Kapid Dev in many ways was responsible for cutting short the career of Zaheers Abbas who has gone on record saying "Kapil was unplayable". Kapil not only has a good record against Pakistan but has taken majority of his wickets in the Asisn suncotinent.

8. You make me laugh when you compare Tom , Dick and Harries with world class bowlers like McGrath, Mcdermott and Brett Lee. Macgrath is one bowler that tests Sachin and Lara from time to time. Now you will tell me Mohammed Sami is better thanb Macgrath , I shall not be surprsied. Only Tendulkar and Lara have had conistent sucees against him.

When I mentioned the attacks I did not imply I was comparing them individually. If you look back at my last post, I meant Pak and SA have had better all-round attacks than Australia.

9. Tendulkar is the most valuable batsmen in world cricket let alone the Indian team. Inzy may be the most valuable player for Pakistan and he should be as IMO there is no one even as half as good in the team currently.

Nope, Dravid is India's most valuable batsman today. Tendulkar is not a proven match-winner, this is a fact, on the other hand Dravid is the backbone of the Indian team and has won many games for India. If Tendulkar is not a match-winner for his country, how can he be the most valuable batsman in the world ?. You mention there is no one half as good as Inzi in the Pak team, yet when it comes to naming him amongst the classiest today, its a different story.

10. I have high regards for all those players who have made cricket a better game and Inzy is one of them simply beacuse he seems to be a very simple person and has surely made a hugh contribution to the Pak team. My issue is with jealous people who cant accept that the greatest batsmen in the world (besides Lara) happens to be Sachin Tendulakar.

Mind you, we are not jealous we are just pointing out facts that some people seem to be ignorant of. Its just like saying Kishore totally eclipsed Rafi in the seventies which is not true, or Shankar Jaikishan were mediocre in the sixties compared to the fifties which is not true again. But then again I don't blame you or others because in India all the hype is on Tendulkar that everyone seems to forget that he infact has flaws and there are other more valuable batsman on the team (i.e Dravid)

11. I remember when I was younger, many people I knew in India who were crazy over Zaheer Abbas, Imran, Miandad, Qadir, Waseem and Waqar and I was one of them. No jealousy, simply the love for this great game.

THIS SHOULD BE IT...I WILL LEAVE YOU GUYS WITH THIS TOPIC. NO HARD FEELINGS

Yeah no hard feelings, Its all good, after all it was all meant for discussion purposes.

YAAR MERE...LETS DISCUSS SQUASH...I AM AN ARDENT FAN OF JEHANGIR KHAN

SOCCER IS NOT MY SPORT YM, BUT STILL HAPPY TO DISCUSS GREATS LIKE PELE, MARADONNA,ZICO,RONALDO AND OTHERS.