The Come Back Of Great Rafi Options

[Binod]

Thanks Prince Ali, your stats (given below) were very helpful. Although they do not provide the complete picture they do provide some interesting insights as you have so correctly pointed out.

Songs by Kishore & Rafi shown yearwise:

Year---------- Kishore-------- Rafi
1970---------- 47-------------- 131
1971---------- 102------------ 131
1972---------- 137------------ 95
1973---------- 146------------ 80
1974---------- 137------------ 83
1975---------- 106------------ 68
1976---------- 103------------ 67
1977---------- 147------------ 101
1978---------- 122------------ 91
1979---------- 77-------------- 84
1980---------- 126------------ 265

I disagree with the analysis that Aradhana had no effect on eroding Rafi's lead in churning out numbers simply on the basis of the above stats. It takes some time to start a new film or decide to make a switch over and finally complete the recordings and releases. This is called the lag effect. It is similar to the cobweb theory of economics when demand and supply do not synchronize. The supply is based on perceived demand which again is based on imperfect / incomplete information. The fact that when the shakers and movers of music decided to replace Rafi it must have been right after Aradhana but it must have taken a couple of years before the new songs were released.

At this stage of upheaval some adventurous parts of the HF music industry appear to want to break away from the Rafian mold that had held sway for so long. They had apparently wanted to redefine HF in a supposedly novel way. Actually it was neither novel nor Indian. It was based on a brilliant yodeler that had been discarded in the dustbin of history. They wanted to resurrect this talent in the form of a new avatar. The Burman home was the workshop where this bold experiment was being carried out.

< Message has been reported of containing derogatory message. Messaged edited with removal of unsuitable words. Member Binod refrain from using language that is not befitting on an open forum where lady members log, read and post.>

After the first year resulting in a drastic reduction in the release of Rafi songs, the music producers realized that they had overshot their estimated target. So there was no more any quantum descent henceforth. Just a few songs reduction per annum was all that happened. Even this reduction would have further vanished if were not for diehard anti Rafi producers like BR Chopra who gave Rafi less than half a dozen songs for the next twenty years since Gumrah. His first choice became Mahendra Kapoor, a Rafi clone (just imagine a fake Rafi being chosen consistently over the genuine Rafi himself). Then came Kishore followed by all others except Rafi. For the Waqt song Ravi had to virtually beg BR to allow Rafi to do the recording. I am sure there must have been a lot of little "other BR" effects coming into play. Somebody can do a little research on this.

If you look closely at Kishore's figures you will notice that the momentum of the Aradhana magic and other initiatives carried him to his peak in the year 1973 just two years after he replaced Rafi as the most prolific singer. Thereafter it was also downhill for him as well, indicating that the novelty phenomenon was wearing down even for the producers of music, proving that heavenly sweet music can in no way be replaced by novel music.

The year 1977 is one that I would not consider in my analysis as I would treat it as an outlier because it is quite anomalous in that both Rafi and Kishore made quantum leaps together that year. Apparently there are some hidden forces that came into play that registered meteoric rises for both these contenders for the numero uno position. It could be that more movies and/or songs were released that year from pending or ongoing work. Perhaps some of you can better explain this through your own research.

By the year 1979, the music producers had realized their mistakes and reinstated Rafi to his former position of the most prolific male singer. Again I would discard 1980 as it contains song that were released after his death as the sympathy factor could possibly come into the picture, as is happening in the "Teri Ada" launch (imagine Reliance trying to fleece us through its monopolistic tentacles).

Finally in the last few years of Rafi's life, I find a proliferation of multi-star songs as multi-star acting became more in vogue. Rafi was often included with Kishore in such ventures. Perhaps the producers thought that it would be a safer bet to include both.

Notice in my analysis I never talked about hits and the demand side. I just talked about the dirty game of supply. Hits are based on quality without any ulterior motives attached. Rafi scored over in the hits area as many Rafians can vouch for it.

So my conclusion is that once the honeymoon with a new avatar voice was over the producers of music had to go back to business as usual and use a more reliable and lasting talent such as Rafi. As far as the listeners were concerned the silent majority still adored Rafi. It was only some of the more vocal audience who clamored for change and opted for any other person except Rafi and their first choice often happened to be Kishore. But the hidden groundswell of support for Rafi was building up steadily even among the younger generation, so much so that one of the most vociferous and ardent support for Rafi comes from a generation that was born only after Rafi left for his heavenly abode.

Thanks friends. Had to get this out of my chest.

Binod.

This post has been edited by cYb0rG: Oct 21 2007, 10:18 AM

[princeali]

Excellent analysis Binod-ji. I would also like to applaud LR-bhai, Harold-bhai, Yusuf-bhai and SS-bhai for their great posts as well.

Binod-ji, you are right, Aradhana's impact on Kishore's output, based on the stats is shown a couple of years down the road. However in terms of impact on Rafi, I am of the view that what really impacted his stats was his eight month leave or 'retreat' to England around late 1971 after a mualvi in Haj had told him singing was haram (I am sure Rafians here such as SS-bhai can elaborate more on this). During that time, with Rafi not around, composers veered more towards Kishore. The stats for 1970 and 1971 show Rafi churning out a lot of songs but for the years after it kind of drops. I have heard that the first song Rafi recorded when he came back was 'Aaj Mausam Bada' (Loafer) and then we see composers balancing Rafi and Kishore.

Sure Aradhana was a breakthrough, one man SD Burman (with the help of his son) virtually changed the music scene with this score (originally mostly meant for Rafi). It helped Kishore finally breakthrough as a lead singer, but had Rafi not taken that leave, things might have been a little different. Sure Kishore would have still been on a high but maybe the Rafi stats would have shown something else. This is all hypothetical ofcourse, but even then Rafi still kept recording on a consistent basis (maybe not as much as before) but its not as if he disappeared anywhere for one year then came back, he was always there.

It is ironic that with Rafi leaving town, Kishore not only got his breakthrough score, but also received a boost in the early part of the decade. This is not under-stating his talent in any way, just pointing out what Rafi's absence from the scene did.

RD's two aces Amar Prem and Kati Patang were also big hits that helped Kishore attain the top position as well.

[nasir]

Thanks Prince Ali, your stats (given below) were very helpful. Although they do not provide the complete picture they do provide some interesting insights as you have so correctly pointed out.

Songs by Kishore & Rafi shown yearwise:

Year---------- Kishore-------- Rafi
1970---------- 47-------------- 131
1971---------- 102------------ 131
1972---------- 137------------ 95
1973---------- 146------------ 80
1974---------- 137------------ 83
1975---------- 106------------ 68
1976---------- 103------------ 67
1977---------- 147------------ 101
1978---------- 122------------ 91
1979---------- 77-------------- 84
1980---------- 126------------ 265

I disagree with the analysis that Aradhana had no effect on eroding Rafi's lead in churning out numbers simply on the basis of the above stats. It takes some time to start a new film or decide to make a switch over and finally complete the recordings and releases. This is called the lag effect. It is similar to the cobweb theory of economics when demand and supply do not synchronize. The supply is based on perceived demand which again is based on imperfect / incomplete information. The fact that when the shakers and movers of music decided to replace Rafi it must have been right after Aradhana but it must have taken a couple of years before the new songs were released.

At this stage of upheaval some adventurous parts of the HF music industry appear to want to break away from the Rafian mold that had held sway for so long. They had apparently wanted to redefine HF in a supposedly novel way. Actually it was neither novel nor Indian. It was based on a brilliant yodeler that had been discarded in the dustbin of history. They wanted to resurrect this talent in the form of a new avatar. The Burman home was the workshop where this bold experiment was being carried out.

< message edited>

After the first year resulting in a drastic reduction in the release of Rafi songs, the music producers realized that they had overshot their estimated target. So there was no more any quantum descent henceforth. Just a few songs reduction per annum was all that happened. Even this reduction would have further vanished if were not for diehard anti Rafi producers like BR Chopra who gave Rafi less than half a dozen songs for the next twenty years since Gumrah. His first choice became Mahendra Kapoor, a Rafi clone (just imagine a fake Rafi being chosen consistently over the genuine Rafi himself). Then came Kishore followed by all others except Rafi. For the Waqt song Ravi had to virtually beg BR to allow Rafi to do the recording. I am sure there must have been a lot of little "other BR" effects coming into play. Somebody can do a little research on this.

If you look closely at Kishore's figures you will notice that the momentum of the Aradhana magic and other initiatives carried him to his peak in the year 1973 just two years after he replaced Rafi as the most prolific singer. Thereafter it was also downhill for him as well, indicating that the novelty phenomenon was wearing down even for the producers of music, proving that heavenly sweet music can in no way be replaced by novel music.

The year 1977 is one that I would not consider in my analysis as I would treat it as an outlier because it is quite anomalous in that both Rafi and Kishore made quantum leaps together that year. Apparently there are some hidden forces that came into play that registered meteoric rises for both these contenders for the numero uno position. It could be that more movies and/or songs were released that year from pending or ongoing work. Perhaps some of you can better explain this through your own research.

By the year 1979, the music producers had realized their mistakes and reinstated Rafi to his former position of the most prolific male singer. Again I would discard 1980 as it contains song that were released after his death as the sympathy factor could possibly come into the picture, as is happening in the "Teri Ada" launch (imagine Reliance trying to fleece us through its monopolistic tentacles).

Finally in the last few years of Rafi's life, I find a proliferation of multi-star songs as multi-star acting became more in vogue. Rafi was often included with Kishore in such ventures. Perhaps the producers thought that it would be a safer bet to include both.

Notice in my analysis I never talked about hits and the demand side. I just talked about the dirty game of supply. Hits are based on quality without any ulterior motives attached. Rafi scored over in the hits area as many Rafians can vouch for it.

So my conclusion is that once the honeymoon with a new avatar voice was over the producers of music had to go back to business as usual and use a more reliable and lasting talent such as Rafi. As far as the listeners were concerned the silent majority still adored Rafi. It was only some of the more vocal audience who clamored for change and opted for any other person except Rafi and their first choice often happened to be Kishore. But the hidden groundswell of support for Rafi was building up steadily even among the younger generation, so much so that one of the most vociferous and ardent support for Rafi comes from a generation that was born only after Rafi left for his heavenly abode.

Thanks friends. Had to get this out of my chest.

Binod.

Thanks for that brilliant analysis Binod Ji.

Will be back shortly again.

Nasir.

This post has been edited by cYb0rG: Oct 21 2007, 10:19 AM

[venkat]

Thanks Prince Ali, your stats (given below) were very helpful. Although they do not provide the complete picture they do provide some interesting insights as you have so correctly pointed out.

Songs by Kishore & Rafi shown yearwise:

Year---------- Kishore-------- Rafi
1970---------- 47-------------- 131
1971---------- 102------------ 131
1972---------- 137------------ 95
1973---------- 146------------ 80
1974---------- 137------------ 83
1975---------- 106------------ 68
1976---------- 103------------ 67
1977---------- 147------------ 101
1978---------- 122------------ 91
1979---------- 77-------------- 84
1980---------- 126------------ 265

I disagree with the analysis that Aradhana had no effect on eroding Rafi’s lead in churning out numbers simply on the basis of the above stats. It takes some time to start a new film or decide to make a switch over and finally complete the recordings and releases. This is called the lag effect. It is similar to the cobweb theory of economics when demand and supply do not synchronize. The supply is based on perceived demand which again is based on imperfect / incomplete information. The fact that when the shakers and movers of music decided to replace Rafi it must have been right after Aradhana but it must have taken a couple of years before the new songs were released.

At this stage of upheaval some adventurous parts of the HF music industry appear to want to break away from the Rafian mold that had held sway for so long. They had apparently wanted to redefine HF in a supposedly novel way. Actually it was neither novel nor Indian. It was based on a brilliant yodeler that had been discarded in the dustbin of history. They wanted to resurrect this talent in the form of a new avatar. The Burman home was the workshop where this bold experiment was being carried out.

< Message edited>
After the first year resulting in a drastic reduction in the release of Rafi songs, the music producers realized that they had overshot their estimated target. So there was no more any quantum descent henceforth. Just a few songs reduction per annum was all that happened. Even this reduction would have further vanished if were not for diehard anti Rafi producers like BR Chopra who gave Rafi less than half a dozen songs for the next twenty years since Gumrah. His first choice became Mahendra Kapoor, a Rafi clone (just imagine a fake Rafi being chosen consistently over the genuine Rafi himself). Then came Kishore followed by all others except Rafi. For the Waqt song Ravi had to virtually beg BR to allow Rafi to do the recording. I am sure there must have been a lot of little "other BR" effects coming into play. Somebody can do a little research on this.

If you look closely at Kishore’s figures you will notice that the momentum of the Aradhana magic and other initiatives carried him to his peak in the year 1973 just two years after he replaced Rafi as the most prolific singer. Thereafter it was also downhill for him as well, indicating that the novelty phenomenon was wearing down even for the producers of music, proving that heavenly sweet music can in no way be replaced by novel music.

The year 1977 is one that I would not consider in my analysis as I would treat it as an outlier because it is quite anomalous in that both Rafi and Kishore made quantum leaps together that year. Apparently there are some hidden forces that came into play that registered meteoric rises for both these contenders for the numero uno position. It could be that more movies and/or songs were released that year from pending or ongoing work. Perhaps some of you can better explain this through your own research.

By the year 1979, the music producers had realized their mistakes and reinstated Rafi to his former position of the most prolific male singer. Again I would discard 1980 as it contains song that were released after his death as the sympathy factor could possibly come into the picture, as is happening in the "Teri Ada" launch (imagine Reliance trying to fleece us through its monopolistic tentacles).

Finally in the last few years of Rafi's life, I find a proliferation of multi-star songs as multi-star acting became more in vogue. Rafi was often included with Kishore in such ventures. Perhaps the producers thought that it would be a safer bet to include both.

Notice in my analysis I never talked about hits and the demand side. I just talked about the dirty game of supply. Hits are based on quality without any ulterior motives attached. Rafi scored over in the hits area as many Rafians can vouch for it.

So my conclusion is that once the honeymoon with a new avatar voice was over the producers of music had to go back to business as usual and use a more reliable and lasting talent such as Rafi. As far as the listeners were concerned the silent majority still adored Rafi. It was only some of the more vocal audience who clamored for change and opted for any other person except Rafi and their first choice often happened to be Kishore. But the hidden groundswell of support for Rafi was building up steadily even among the younger generation, so much so that one of the most vociferous and ardent support for Rafi comes from a generation that was born only after Rafi left for his heavenly abode.

Thanks friends. Had to get this out of my chest.

Binod.

Very true.

[LEGENDRAFI]

Binod ji, a great analysis indeed.
However, the question still remains - Did Rafi Sahab make a 'COMEBACK' or not? I hope we get some answers on that, based on the various points mentioned by different members.

Songs by Kishore & Rafi shown yearwise:

Year---------- Kishore-------- Rafi
1970---------- 47-------------- 131
1971---------- 102------------ 131
1972---------- 137------------ 95
1973---------- 146------------ 80
1974---------- 137------------ 83
1975---------- 106------------ 68
1976---------- 103------------ 67
1977---------- 147------------ 101
1978---------- 122------------ 91
1979---------- 77-------------- 84
1980---------- 126------------ 265

Now, what I can make out from the stats is that while Kishore Kumar's number of songs saw an astonishing high during the immediate "post Aradhana" years, Rafi Sahab's number of songs first stabilized and then went down in comparison to Kishore Kumar's during the next few years. The reasons for Rafi Sahab's declining graph could be various but one would have to say that Kishore Kumar's growing popularity could be the most important of all those.

I think we have to admit the fact that during the period 71-76, Kishore Kumar was the more popular singer and based on those stats one can clearly say that he was ahead of Rafi Sahab. Therefore, when Rafi Sahab's graph started going upwards from 77 onwards it was a huge leap in comparison to the previous 2-3 years (in comparison to KK) and I think to make it there from where he was during 74,75,76, it can only be termed as a 'COMEBACK' and it can mainly be credited to Rafi Sahab's enormous talent and versatility.

[suhana_safar]

Thanks Prince Ali, your stats (given below) were very helpful. Although they do not provide the complete picture they do provide some interesting insights as you have so correctly pointed out.

Songs by Kishore & Rafi shown yearwise:

Year---------- Kishore-------- Rafi
1970---------- 47-------------- 131
1971---------- 102------------ 131
1972---------- 137------------ 95
1973---------- 146------------ 80
1974---------- 137------------ 83
1975---------- 106------------ 68
1976---------- 103------------ 67
1977---------- 147------------ 101
1978---------- 122------------ 91
1979---------- 77-------------- 84
1980---------- 126------------ 265

I disagree with the analysis that Aradhana had no effect on eroding Rafi’s lead in churning out numbers simply on the basis of the above stats. It takes some time to start a new film or decide to make a switch over and finally complete the recordings and releases. This is called the lag effect. It is similar to the cobweb theory of economics when demand and supply do not synchronize. The supply is based on perceived demand which again is based on imperfect / incomplete information. The fact that when the shakers and movers of music decided to replace Rafi it must have been right after Aradhana but it must have taken a couple of years before the new songs were released.

>>> You are right and the stats are a proof. Although Kishore got acceptance from Aradhna, that by no way took anything from Rafisaab. The singers who got most affected by KK's popularity were Mana, Mukesh and Mahendra Kapoor. Rafisaab's number 1 position was always intact as he had nothing to prove as he had being the undisputed and unmatched singer from 50 onwards. To sustain the undisputed position for such a long time is a clear proof of his umtached brillaince and supreme position that stands to date.
As you have rightly pointed out that KK himself could not sustain his popularity in the early 70's
The reason for lesser out put by Rafisaab in 72, 73 and 74 is sue to his absence for more than 10 months due to his Haj and his subsequent decision not to sing as he was told that it was a sin to sing after Haj.
The dry period is due to this lag efffect where Rafisaab songs were not recorded due to his absence.

Thereafter it was also downhill for him as well, indicating that the novelty phenomenon was wearing down even for the producers of music, proving that heavenly sweet music can in no way be replaced by novel music.

>>> Correct and good observation

By the year 1979, the music producers had realized their mistakes and reinstated Rafi to his former position of the most prolific male singer. Again I would discard 1980 as it contains song that were released after his death as the sympathy factor could possibly come into the picture, as is happening in the "Teri Ada" launch (imagine Reliance trying to fleece us through its monopolistic tentacles).

>> Actually they never had a doubt but were pressurised by producers and chamchas of some stars.

Notice in my analysis I never talked about hits and the demand side. I just talked about the dirty game of supply. Hits are based on quality without any ulterior motives attached. Rafi scored over in the hits area as many Rafians can vouch for it.

>>> Any one who has even an iota of music sense would not doubt that in terms of quality, Rafisaab was always and is number 1.

So my conclusion is that once the honeymoon with a new avatar voice was over the producers of music had to go back to business as usual and use a more reliable and lasting talent such as Rafi.

>>>Absolutely

>>>Excellent post with logical and correct analysis.

Thanks

SS

[princeali]

Has anyone noticed that this thread started by Razia for sharing songs of Rafi in his later years, has turned into a page full of analysis

[LEGENDRAFI]

Has anyone noticed that this thread started by Razia for sharing songs of Rafi in his later years, has turned into a page full of analysis

Prince Ali ji, absolutely right! By the way, here's the one post to which all the credit, for the discussion and analysis, should go to:

QUOTE(razia @ Oct 17 2007, 11:37 AM) *

Hi Rafians!

I am starting a new thread by the name of "THE COME BACK OF GREAT RAFI". This would include songs of Rafi sahib from 1977 to onwards.



The title is offensive, please change it.

Yes, Noorie ji had termed the title of the post offensive and that has got the "wheels in motion" as they say. Still, things might not have come to this point had Myawan Bhai not expressed his surprise at Noorie ji's post and not posted this as a reply:

QUOTE
The title is offensive, please change it.


would you like to explain please.

After that, as they say - "The Rest is History". This topic, after these two posts that I have mentioned above, took a complete turn and became something completely different than what it was expected to be.

We can only thank Noorie ji and Myawan Bhai for making us all think and come up with our versions of the situation at hand. I am sure, as a result of this discussion, most of us have discovered something new and interesting about Rafi Sahab and the evolution of Hindi Film Music during the 70s. I thank all the members who made this discussion a wonderful experience to be a part of.

[noorie]

Thanks Prince Ali, your stats (given below) were very helpful. Although they do not provide the complete picture they do provide some interesting insights as you have so correctly pointed out.

Songs by Kishore & Rafi shown yearwise:

Year---------- Kishore-------- Rafi
1970---------- 47-------------- 131
1971---------- 102------------ 131
1972---------- 137------------ 95
1973---------- 146------------ 80
1974---------- 137------------ 83
1975---------- 106------------ 68
1976---------- 103------------ 67
1977---------- 147------------ 101
1978---------- 122------------ 91
1979---------- 77-------------- 84
1980---------- 126------------ 265

I disagree with the analysis that Aradhana had no effect on eroding Rafi's lead in churning out numbers simply on the basis of the above stats. It takes some time to start a new film or decide to make a switch over and finally complete the recordings and releases. This is called the lag effect. It is similar to the cobweb theory of economics when demand and supply do not synchronize. The supply is based on perceived demand which again is based on imperfect / incomplete information. The fact that when the shakers and movers of music decided to replace Rafi it must have been right after Aradhana but it must have taken a couple of years before the new songs were released.

At this stage of upheaval some adventurous parts of the HF music industry appear to want to break away from the Rafian mold that had held sway for so long. They had apparently wanted to redefine HF in a supposedly novel way. Actually it was neither novel nor Indian. It was based on a brilliant yodeler that had been discarded in the dustbin of history. They wanted to resurrect this talent in the form of a new avatar. The Burman home was the workshop where this bold experiment was being carried out.

< Message has been reported of containing derogatory message. Messaged edited with removal of unsuitable words. Member Binod refrain from using language that is not befitting on an open forum where lady members log, read and post.>

After the first year resulting in a drastic reduction in the release of Rafi songs, the music producers realized that they had overshot their estimated target. So there was no more any quantum descent henceforth. Just a few songs reduction per annum was all that happened. Even this reduction would have further vanished if were not for diehard anti Rafi producers like BR Chopra who gave Rafi less than half a dozen songs for the next twenty years since Gumrah. His first choice became Mahendra Kapoor, a Rafi clone (just imagine a fake Rafi being chosen consistently over the genuine Rafi himself). Then came Kishore followed by all others except Rafi. For the Waqt song Ravi had to virtually beg BR to allow Rafi to do the recording. I am sure there must have been a lot of little "other BR" effects coming into play. Somebody can do a little research on this.

If you look closely at Kishore's figures you will notice that the momentum of the Aradhana magic and other initiatives carried him to his peak in the year 1973 just two years after he replaced Rafi as the most prolific singer. Thereafter it was also downhill for him as well, indicating that the novelty phenomenon was wearing down even for the producers of music, proving that heavenly sweet music can in no way be replaced by novel music.

The year 1977 is one that I would not consider in my analysis as I would treat it as an outlier because it is quite anomalous in that both Rafi and Kishore made quantum leaps together that year. Apparently there are some hidden forces that came into play that registered meteoric rises for both these contenders for the numero uno position. It could be that more movies and/or songs were released that year from pending or ongoing work. Perhaps some of you can better explain this through your own research.

By the year 1979, the music producers had realized their mistakes and reinstated Rafi to his former position of the most prolific male singer. Again I would discard 1980 as it contains song that were released after his death as the sympathy factor could possibly come into the picture, as is happening in the "Teri Ada" launch (imagine Reliance trying to fleece us through its monopolistic tentacles).

Finally in the last few years of Rafi's life, I find a proliferation of multi-star songs as multi-star acting became more in vogue. Rafi was often included with Kishore in such ventures. Perhaps the producers thought that it would be a safer bet to include both.

Notice in my analysis I never talked about hits and the demand side. I just talked about the dirty game of supply. Hits are based on quality without any ulterior motives attached. Rafi scored over in the hits area as many Rafians can vouch for it.

So my conclusion is that once the honeymoon with a new avatar voice was over the producers of music had to go back to business as usual and use a more reliable and lasting talent such as Rafi. As far as the listeners were concerned the silent majority still adored Rafi. It was only some of the more vocal audience who clamored for change and opted for any other person except Rafi and their first choice often happened to be Kishore. But the hidden groundswell of support for Rafi was building up steadily even among the younger generation, so much so that one of the most vociferous and ardent support for Rafi comes from a generation that was born only after Rafi left for his heavenly abode.

Thanks friends. Had to get this out of my chest.

Binod.

So, has a resolution been arrived at yet regarding the title change of this thread?
Or is it the idea 2 continue with the status quo?

[LEGENDRAFI]

So, has a resolution been arrived at yet regarding the title change of this thread?
Or is it the idea 2 continue with the status quo?

Noorie ji, where do you stand on this remains the big question, especially, after 3 pages and 39 posts of interesting analysis and discussions. I mean, since it was you who wanted the title changed, it's you who must decide, right?.. Well, maybe!

Nevertheless, I hope others can chip in with their own decisions as we can do with that... if for nothing else, then to ensure that the topic comes to a "dramatically epic" end!

[venkat]

Has anyone noticed that this thread started by Razia for sharing songs of Rafi in his later years, has turned into a page full of analysis

Prince Ali ji, absolutely right! By the way, here's the one post to which all the credit, for the discussion and analysis, should go to:

QUOTE(razia @ Oct 17 2007, 11:37 AM) *

Hi Rafians!

I am starting a new thread by the name of "THE COME BACK OF GREAT RAFI". This would include songs of Rafi sahib from 1977 to onwards.



The title is offensive, please change it.

Yes, Noorie ji had termed the title of the post offensive and that has got the "wheels in motion" as they say. Still, things might not have come to this point had Myawan Bhai not expressed his surprise at Noorie ji's post and not posted this as a reply:

QUOTE
The title is offensive, please change it.


would you like to explain please.

After that, as they say - "The Rest is History". This topic, after these two posts that I have mentioned above, took a complete turn and became something completely different than what it was expected to be.

We can only thank Noorie ji and Myawan Bhai for making us all think and come up with our versions of the situation at hand. I am sure, as a result of this discussion, most of us have discovered something new and interesting about Rafi Sahab and the evolution of Hindi Film Music during the 70s. I thank all the members who made this discussion a wonderful experience to be a part of.

Gaurav Ji, Noorie Ji has a great knack of hijacking (livening up? pepping up?) various topics. That is one of the things that I admire her for! Honestly.

Venkat

[LEGENDRAFI]

Gaurav Ji, Noorie Ji has a great knack of hijacking (livening up? pepping up?) various topics. That is one of the many things that I admire in her! Honestly.

Venkat

Venkat ji, I am fully aware of Noorie ji's great ability!
Why else, do you think, I would have taken the trouble to counter Noorie ji's point about the "Offensiveness of the Topic's Title" with such 'devotion'?

As I said before, it was great to be apart of this debate!

[noorie]

So, has a resolution been arrived at yet regarding the title change of this thread?
Or is it the idea 2 continue with the status quo?

Noorie ji, where do you stand on this remains the big question, especially, after 3 pages and 39 posts of interesting analysis and discussions. I mean, since it was you who wanted the title changed, it's you who must decide, right?.. Well, maybe!

Nevertheless, I hope others can chip in with their own decisions as we can do with that... if for nothing else, then to ensure that the topic comes to a "dramatically epic" end!

http://www.hamaraforums.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=425777

[noorie]

Gaurav Ji, Noorie Ji has a great knack of hijacking (livening up? pepping up?) various topics.
That is one of the many things that I admire in her! Honestly.

Venkat

Venkat ji, I am fully aware of Noorie ji's great ability!
Why else, do you think, I would have taken the trouble to counter Noorie ji's point about the "Offensiveness of the Topic's Title" with such 'devotion'?

As I said before, it was great to be apart of this debate!

I am delighted to hear that honest confession gentlemen but that’s enough sweet talk centred around me.

The discussion awaits a resolution; so what’s the verdict? Should the thread title be changed or not?

[Unregistered_050208]

1. If Rafi Sahab did not receive the usual attention from the masses for a short time in the early 70s - it was for several reasons, none relating to musical merit. People are fickle and change is inevitable. Of course, Diamond never goes out of style.

2. When I look back at songs from 70s, I never see a decline in quality. This translates that had I been around back then, he'd have never been gone for me - he'd always be around with his songs.

3. People today are not exposed to whimsical waves / hype of fickle Indian press at the unfair expense of Mohd Rafi that existed in 70s. All that has long since washed away and someone from currents times can only look back at what remains: the concrete truth. What I see are my favorite songs, especially in 1973 - supposedly his leanest point. If THAT is his leanest phase - it just shows what a super singer he was.

4. Having said all that, Rafi Sahab did literally leave recording studios in 1972. Nevertheless, he was always around with his amazing voice - but that's something else. This break did have impact and when he returned to singing - in that sense it was like a comeback.

5. How come the numbers listed don't reflect an 8 month (or more) period of no recording? Did he really multiply his output within a short period to make up for it? It's striking that his output almost triples in 1980. How are these things possible considering that Rafi Sahab, when working, always had the busiest schedule. Is it humanly possible to multiple a schedule like that? I'd like a small, rough idea of the output of Rafi Sahab was at any point in 60s for comparison (no need for looking up or tallying). Maybe in 70s the output of MDs / songs declined in general and greats like Rafi / KK were limited in output as a result.

6. Of course - the numbers game is trivial. If Rafi had sang even 23 songs in 1973 - it is his amazing quality that counts, not quantity. It'd hardly take away from his greatness. Venkatji had posted numbers for these years at mohdrafi dot com and they were noticeably different. No big deal though.

7. 1969 was one of my favorite years for songs of Rafi Sahab. In terms of musical merit - he had no match that year. Not even close. Having said that, I'm happy for Kishore to get the Filmfare - he deserved a break. I agree with someone else, this never took away from Rafi - it was only a gain for Kishore.

8. Sometimes things don't turn out the way we want them or think they should be. That's fine, everyone is human. Part of being a good fan IMO, is to accept these truths. For whatever reason (not recording for many months?), the term comeback is appropriate He was always around producing great music but it wasn't the usual. Things got back to normal soon enough. Rafi Sahab is so great that I happily take him for what he was.

9. In his last years, Rafi Sahab was depressed due to nasty lobbying in the industry and his health wasn't consistent - these are things the 1965 version didn't suffer as badly from (of course there was politics back then too - HMV royalties). 1980 Rafi is my favorite for personal reasons - but 1965 Rafi was even better. Every quality about Mohd Rafi is his best quality - so even if something isn't the usual - you can't point it out. He was always an AMAZING GREAT singer blessed with magic - even till has last songs recorded.

10. His voice was SO FULL, so lively, so melodious, so crisp & clean in the opening of the 1977 duet "Chor Sipahee". People may not tout it musically as Rafi's classic in 50s - but that is one of my favorite openings with any singer.